.s

Tongues: Thoughts after thoughts

2007-05-07T12:41:00.000+12:00

I asked a question some months back, about the gift of tongues by the spirit.

I want to thank all those that I was able to talk to and for the few sources that I read that started me thinking. Also thanks to those that replied to my query.

So where am I now? Lets start with some assumptions that I have come to that I will base my thoughts upon:

1. Words have many meanings.

A word can mean different things when used in different contexts, and so the word must be read in context to understand its intended meaning fully.

In terms of the word tongues in the bible. Depending on the version of the bible used, the word translated tongues either is from the greek word “glossa” or “dialektos”. The NIV tranlatates the word ‘dialektos’ three times as ‘language’, and three times in conjunction with Hebrew as ‘Aramaic’. The word ‘glossa’ is translated 42 times with ‘tongues’ and seven times with ‘language’. The oxford dictionary has two definitions that are useful in this thought: a language/dialect and, the ability to speak.

There are a few passages that are most significant to the argument about the Spiritual gift of tongues. The first being the passage in Mark 16:17(debated) then Acts 2:4,2:11,10:46,19:6, and 1 Corinthians 12-14.

If we take the word tongues listed in these passages we must see that sometimes it is clear that the languages spoken are understandable human languages (Acts 2 – day of Pentecost – as shown by Acts 2:11) and at other times they may not be understandable (1 Cor 14:2).

2. The Church is for the Church

I believe that the gifts given of the Spirit are given to us for the good and edification (building up, strengthening) of the church (1 Cor 12:7, 14:26b). Paul says in 1 Cor 14:4-5 that whoever speaks in tongues edifies only themselves unless someone interprets so that all can be edified.

I believe that whenever we are together with other Christians, our public sharing should never be just for personal benefit, but also for the building up of those around us. (1 Cor 14:12,18-19,28) We have been gifted the gifts of the Spirit, but with this gift also comes the responsibility to use our gift appropriately.

If anyone has the gift of tongues, praise the Lord. But they must use their gift in a wisely and timely way. If there is no one to interpret, they should keep quiet. Our responsibility is to use our gifts, not for personal acclamation (as seen in many churches today) but for the edification of others, and so we must use our gifts in view of this.

In times of private prayer on the other hand, the use of tongues is excellent and admirable as it edifies the speaker by building up their spirit (1 Cor 14:4) but praying in tongues can never take the place of praying with your mind and with understanding (1 Cor 14:14-15) but rather can be used alongside it. At the same time, it is not required to build up the Spirit. Someone who prays in their own language is not less built up then someone who speaks in an unknown language.

3. God has made each of us diverse

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 says this: “there are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working but that same God works all of them in all men.” The passage goes on to say that to one is given this and to another that, and finishes in saying that it is the Spirit who determines which gifts are given to which people. Therefore, do not expect to get given of the same gifts.

Our desire as shown by 1 Corinthians 13 should be above that of simply gifts of ability. Paul states that love is above all and without love even the mightiest of works is hollow and useless. Paul talks of desiring gifts in the verses before and after 1 Cor. 13 but this must be taken in light of Paul’s greater desire to see us grow in love and relationship and likeness of Christ. The gifts are not the end, but rather a means to the end. An artist desires a new paintbrush, not so that he can enjoy the new paintbrush, but that he can produce a more excellent painting.

Never worry that you are not gifted with the gifts you desire or others claim you need, worry if you are not growing (yourself and others) with the gifts that you have been given.

4. Spiritual actions don’t make spiritual people.

Finally I am reminded of the passage in Matthew 7:15-23. I know of places where spiritual gifts are a sign of how spiritual you are. People saying that if you speak in a tongue, the Spirit is within you, and if you do not? Well, well well... Or maybe you cannot heal? Prophesy? Interpret?

Building on what I have said about 1 Corinthians 13, your salvation has nothing to do with the abilities you have been given. It is not you outward actions, but the inward reality that determines your place with Christ. Some of the most Godly people I know do not exhibit a single of the ‘spiritual’ gifts as proclaimed necessary in some churches.

Look not to the path but to the goal. Look not at the gifts, but at the heart of a person. Is love the defining characteristic in someone’s life?

In conclusion, one day all tongues/languages will cease for we will see God as he is and we will communicate with Him face to face, and everyone will understand everyone. But for now, we live in wait of that day, and live with our differences, and struggles, and misunderstandings. Pray for unity, growth and love.

May my understanding of the Bible ever increase.

2007-04-13T22:08:00.000+12:00

I was reading this article the other day about a man who wanted to invest his money for God. He started to invest it and continued to reinvest and reinvest and never ended up using what he had for God. And it made me think. There is a thought traveling around at the moment that to reach the world we need to first of all invest here where we are, and so the advice is not to go overseas, but stay here and give your lives for the investment of people here. The difficulty i have, is when does that investment start to impact the world? We are a relatively spiritually rich country, and yet we bemoan (and rightly) our spiritual destitution when in reality, the majority of the world is in worse poverty. We do need to be challenged and moved, to serve God wherever we are, but that should never be staying home at the expense of going out. People are more often challenged for God by those who live for God, and more often challenged for mission by missionaries. People are difficult to push, but often willing to be pulled. What pulls people? Example, leaders, those they can follow.
I challenge you, if you want young people to be excited for missions, become a missionary and lead them by your example. The difficulty is that those who go, must look not only forward, but backwards, calling and lifting people up after themselves. We are called to witness to two people, those who do not know, and those who do. To fellowship and encourage our brothers and sisters along the race. The sidelines might sound like a good place to do that from, but an athlete will always listen to another athlete before they listen to a spectator.

Prayer

2007-03-13T12:32:00.000+13:00

What is the difference between individual and corporate prayer?

What is the purpose of prayer?

How should we pray?

How should we not pray?

Tongues/Languages

2007-03-13T12:31:00.001+13:00

What is your understanding of the gift of tongues by the Spirit.

How is this displayed in the Bible,
and how is it displayed today?

2007-02-28T09:46:00.000+13:00

Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.

-St. Francis of Assisi

Do you agree with this quote?
What do you think this means in practice?

2007-01-27T11:43:00.000+13:00

I am engaged.
I got engaged to Christina Lin on sunday 21, 1, 2007
I am engaged.

2007-01-26T21:03:00.000+13:00

Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. For,
"Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from deceitful speech.
He must turn from evil and do good;
he must seek peace and pursue it.
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Brother, my brother.

2006-11-29T01:48:00.000+13:00

there was a twin once who said, "brother, give me your inheritance, for i want it as my own." His brother replied, "and why should i do such a thing?" "For i am your brother," the first replied, to which the second responded, "a true brother would not ask such a thing, therefore you are no brother of mine."

And so the two brothers parted ways in discord and disharmony, and there arose a fued between the two. As one went and called up his friends, so to did the other, and war broke out. And so taken in their wrath were they that thouyght their father sickened, and then died, they did not notice. And so the father died with no son beside his bedside to grieve at his passing. And no son was their to notice as their father passed over the inheritance to another, a stranger, a servant, one not of their blood.

And so the question was, who was to blame, and what, if anything, could have been changed?

2006-11-27T11:11:00.000+13:00

speaking is in the words
conversation in the silence

Rahab: the challenge for internationals and the rest of us

2006-11-07T10:29:00.000+13:00

A while back at OCF we did a study of the story of Rahab. It was actually very interesting, and at the same time, very dificult. I think that of the studies that we have done this semester, it must have been the hardest. There were a couple of things that i thought really came out and made me think though.

1. Loyalty.

I found it interesting that one of the biggest struggles with a number of people seemed to be the issue of Rahab betraying her country. I guess this may stem somewhat from my third-culture-ness, and also from my more western perspective as well. I don't have quite the same patriotism that i see in many of my friends. I will have to say that this is especially true of Chinese, who have a very strong sense of patriotism, but also of most asian countries. It is something that i had never thought much of and so found any difficulty with before, Rahab being willing to betray her country to follow God. Because that is what she did. She decided that God was to be feared and followed above all other things, even her country. She realized that it was to God that demanded her first allegiance, even above her country, even to the point of betraying her country. Yes, and it was this action that resulted in her being called righteous for what she did concerning the two spies. And today, the same truth applies. God comes before any other allegiance, even to the point of betraying that allegiance, if it means following God. I am reminded also of the story of Ruth. Her story is of less obvious betrayal because in it noone is killed by her betrayal. But yet her actions are the same. She decides to forsake her home, her country, her religion, her family, for the sake of Naomi and her God. In the new testament it only gets more difficult as we hear from the lips of Jesus in Matthew 10 where he points ou that he has "come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - a mans enemies will be the members of his own household.' Anyone who loves his father or mother more then me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more then me is not worthy of me." ...anyone who loves his wife or husband, boyfriend or girlfriend, dog or cat, more then me is not worthy of Him. I see great patriotism in my asian friends, and i really respect that, i also see a massive sense of family obligation and closeness, and that too i respect. And yet, sometimes it tears my heart. For often it is also this that comes in the way of their following God wholeheartedly. God is God, and man is not. Your mother is not God, your father is not God. Your father and your mother have less right ot your obediance then your creator, then God. Less right to your love, your time, your finances, your respect, your life.
How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God. - Mark 10.23

2. Justice.

In the city of Jericho, there were many people. Many old, and many young. A wide spectrum of people, many of whom were terrified of God. Some of whom may have feared God. Some were tiny innocent babes, some were hardened murderers. And yet, at God's command, and with God's help and sanction, the Jews killed "devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed withe the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys." Joshua 6.21 Wow.
Why? This is a difficult question. And the answers are hard and difficult to accept. I don't know the complete answer, but will put forward some thoughts.

Psalms 24.1 "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it."

Ecclesiastes 7.20 "there is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."
Psalms 51.5 "surely i was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
Luke 13.4 "or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them - do you think they were more guilty then all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
Luke 12.4,5 "i tell you friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after taht can do no more. But i will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, i tell you, fear Him."

Genesis 9:2 "And for your lifeblood i will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, i will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man."

Matthew 12.36,37 "but i tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquited, and by your words you will be condemned."

We have such a view of death. Such a high view. Why? Is it because we have such a low view of what comes after? Death is a tragic thing. It is a horrific thing, but it is not the end. We should uphold and strive to protect life, because it is a gift of God, not because it is all there is. When God withdraws His gift, that is not judgment. No, that comes after. For there is a day when each man and woman, animal and creature will stand before the Lord and will give an accounting of what they have done. The earth is the Lords and everything in it, to do with as He pleases, but He is a Loving God and cares for all that He has created. God causes the good and the bad in the world and that too we must accept. Gods ways are higher then our ways, His plans loftier then ours, His vision stretches from the begining of time to the end. One view is that what is one mans death when it can save thousand? For by these actions has God's salvation come about, and so many have been saved. But no, that is not it at all. God acts for His glory.

So how do we accept this? First we must accept that God is God, that He does have the right to do with as He wills, what He does is right (and to be able to do this, we must know God, as He is, in all His fullness of glory, majesty, holiness, love, and righteousness). We must also accept that we are held accountable for our actions and also that our actions are not individual, but community based. (just think, the great atrocities that have been perpetrated on this world, they are not just someone doing something wrong, but someone not doing something right, if the right do not stand for what is right, they are condoning what is wrong). And finally that death is not the everything.

2006-11-04T07:42:00.000+13:00

my new nephew. just have to post it.

http://www.dotphoto.com/Flashtool/GuestViewShow.asp?AID=4014985

love

2006-11-03T09:26:00.000+13:00

had an interesting discussion with a friend this morning about God. talked about who God was and what people thought of God and how they viewed Him, what was important and what was just confusing.

Love. what is it. people think all sorts of things at different times. It made me think. I have always agreed with the statement - God is Love. It is a christian sentiment, but i fear, not much of a non-christian sentiment. Now there is the opposite, love is God. What does this mean in comparison. I think that this is the approach of most non-christians, but should it also be the approach of christians. not so sure. it has much to say i guess, but i would rather go with this - love is: God.

What is Ministry?

2006-10-30T11:55:00.000+13:00

Here are some differnt views that i have recieved on that question when asking for a one sentence answer. Feel free to comment or leave your own answer.

"What God does through us"
"Anything in your life through which others can see God"
"Sharing the Word of God"
"Using ones gifts to serve in the area you are in"

2006-10-27T10:27:00.001+13:00

i live my life
the me i am
was born from birth
the me i am

have grown from child
the me i am
to learn to find
the me i am

through wounds that mar
the me i am
and tears that scar
the me i am

to step a step
the me i am
to think to know
the me i am

in all my points
the me i am
and try to be
the me i am

the this who is
the me i am
to move from what
the me i am

to more then just
the me i am
till then i come
the me i am

the time when done
the me i am
who then shall know
the me i am

how life i lived
the me i am
and death i died
the me i am

and if at last
the me i am
did reach the goal
to see I AM.

macadamia

2006-10-24T13:07:00.000+13:00

sometimes with a seed
to let the life out
one must crack the shell

the macadamia nut is one of the hardest nuts to crack. small and compact, keeping itself wrapped up within. And yet, when it grows, a small fragile and tender shoot is put forth, cracking its hard exterior. Calmy and gently, without qualm, the nut cracks, and allows forth itself.
And who causes all things to grow? 1 Corinthians 3:7, 'so neither he who plants or he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things Grow.' It is our Father in heaven.
Are not people like nuts. Us: we cannot grow unless we are willing to crack forth through our shell. Others: we cannot crack them open, but they must crack open themselves through the power of God.

aseed

2006-10-13T23:38:00.000+13:00

a seed
that stays a seed
is not a seed

selflessness

2006-10-13T23:32:00.000+13:00

if selfishness can be difined as only doing what you want, what then is selflessness? doing what you dont want to do? no. selflessness has nothing to do with what you want or dont want to do. in fact it has nothing to do with what you do at all, because it has nothing to do with you.

Correspondence

2006-09-19T11:15:00.000+12:00

I have been thinking about a lot of what you have said. I think that you are right in that these years are the years in which our views on ministry are getting shaped the most by those around us and i certainly think that over the past year my views on ministry have really been developed and molded in a more solid way. I can see that even as i listen to sermons i am starting to see differences in approach which stem from different views of ministry. And that is just one context within which ministry happens. It was most interesting to visit Napier over the weekend of the 3rd and have talks from two different individuals. One was from our host, a Malaysian man, speaking about leadership and the purposes of ministry, and another was a talk about relating to parents from the pastor of another church in Hastings. That weekend in Napier was our leadership retreat and was actually a really intriguing week for me. It made me think of many things in terms of ministry that i am still really thinking about and trying to work through and i guess is one of the reasons i thought to start a blog.

When i think of all the sources that have built into me in terms of ministry. I think TSCF has been instrumental, my parents - naturally, also Xiao Ou and the trip to china, also Kingston St and this new teaching approach and seeing some of the behind the scenes stuff, another recent push is the difficulties that are facing another church at the moment and having discussions about how to move forward through them, but i think that the most influential thing for me has just been in working through OCF. Seeing the needs that arise in individuals and using my skills or those of others to try and meet those needs, seeing my incapability in some areas, seeing something work and others fail, seeing new issues that arise from them all. It is these things that are truly causing me to think deeper and deeper into how to minister in truth to the needs of people. How did Christ minister to people, how does the Spirit guide us and help us and empower us, in what ways can we both help and guide, and in what ways does any of this differ from person to person, situation to situation. I think one of the things that i find most helpful is just the breadth of people that i have been able to talk to over the last year, with so many different thoughts. Some have been positive, while others have caused me to learn through my disagreement, and my evaluation of the disagreement.

One of the things that i am trying to do at the moment is to take a few sermons from different people and approaches and really look at what makes them different. I am also going to pass it on to my mentor and see what they would think as well. (I have one on transcript and will try and get the other one or two i want to do from audio onto transcript this week so that i can compare them both through the same medium and thus be a little more methodical).

When i look to next year, i can see here in Palmy many from whom i can still learn much from, be they right or wrong. I see much opportunity here through individuals whom i respect and individuals whom i see growing in their faith and in their grasp of what it means to follow and serve God. Through doing bible studies here and through seeing young Christians come to and through difficulties and questions.

One of the reasons i would really like to work with Kingston St is that there is within it a diverse group of leaders, all thinking hard about what ministry is, and from whom i can learn a lot.

In that then i guess i am really quite set on staying here and on the possibilities that are here. I think that though, as a friend shared with me, that no matter what situation we are in, it is our attitude that really shapes our views on ministry as well. For how willing we are to learn, how we learn, and the personalities of people that we are able to connect most easily with are what most shape our ministry approach. And so i pray that God will continue to work within me, opening me up and leading me to listen to those that He wants me to listen to, to be able to hear and discern what is best.

In Him through whom all things have their being.

Passion

2006-09-14T09:45:00.001+12:00

Definition: A commitment and enthusiasm for someone or something.

This is the original definition for passion as a friend and i would define it. But i think that when looking into Christian ministry the definition needs to change slightly:

Definition: A commitment and enthusiasm for someone shown through something.

This definition for passion stems from a discussion we had on a leadership retreat when looking for what it meant to have a passion for the group we are leaders in. I think that there is a lot of things that can be brought out of this quote. I think that first it can be seen that neither commitment or enthusiasm is enough on its own. Both are great but with only one, whats the point. I think one of the things that i have felt when reflecting on ministry from the Bible is the idea of joyful sacrifice. (This also touches on the idea of giving and tithing found in Matthew). Commitment will engender sacrifice but it is a worthless offering to God if it is not from your heart with joy and enthusiam. The most marked change between the two definitions comes now though in the next part. Here you see that the sentence has been significantly changed. I think this came about from our realization that action is always secondary to people. But then when we started to look at the who, it also brought to light that the only appropriate who was one person: God. When looking at the practicalities, sure, you can put others into that sentence as individual ministries focus as such, but i think that it is an important realization that all ministries need to come back to. The focus of any of our passions should always be God. Not the actions we do, not the people we meet. All these will at times tire us, at times fustrate us, and at times our passion for them will seem to die. That is when we must return to the realization that our passion is centered on God. God can ignite any passion. What we are doing should always and only be a reflection of our passion for God. We commit to something, because it is our way of serving God, of sacrificing ourselfishness for Him, we are enthusiastic about something because we know that God is enthusiastic about it, that it is building into God's kingdom. And so passion must always stem from the someone, which is why personal time to grow your own faith must be put at the top of any list of priorities above any ministries that people get involved in. Because your passion for that ministry needs to stem from your passion for God which stems from your growing relationship with Him.

2006-09-11T13:52:00.000+12:00

if a picture tells a thousand words
ill paint a teardrop and let it fall
ill paint a sun and watch it set
ill paint a leper and help him beg
ill paint a rose and see you smile
ill paint a cloud and float away.

Ministry in brief

2006-09-04T10:14:00.000+12:00

What is ministry? What is the role of a pastor? What is the role of a leader in a christian group? How do you help in the changing of peoples lives? Questions all for thought. Recently going through my mind as i have talked with people and also watched what has happened in many different areas of ministry. Each church or group has different ideals upon which its practice is run and different groups that it works with which also affect how it targets and practices the teaching of Christ. What are the foundation principles upon which these should all reast or are they fluid?